Biggest Fears & Religious Trauma: Chappell Roan Interviews Hemlocke Springs

Releasing your debut album is no easy feat, though it helps to have a friend — preferably one who’s been in your shoes before — who can talk you through it. For Hemlocke Springs, that friend is Chappell Roan.

Roan discovered the singer-songwriter the same way most people did: on TikTok circa 2022 with the viral track “Girlfriend.” Since then, the Midwest Princess has been very vocal about her love of the artist, even going so far as to invite Springs (born Isimeme “Naomi” Udu) on tour with her last year. To celebrate the arrival of Springs’ highly anticipated debut The Apple Tree Under the Sea, out Feb. 13, the two caught up over Zoom to chat about the songwriting process, self-discovery through music, and religious trauma.

Chappell Roan: Do you want me to call you Naomi or would you like Hemlocke?

Hemlocke Springs: You can call me Naomi.

CR: OK. I was reading that you were raised pretty religious. What denomination were you raised?

HS: We were Baptist, but then we moved to another church. I was there for a minute and then I went to college. It's weird because I went to an HBCU and there was a church service every Sunday, but I never went. And did I lie and say I went to my parents?

CR: Have your parents been to a show of yours?

HS: My mom has. When I supported Conan [Gray], she went to the Charlotte one, and it was so awkward because she was like, “Where’d you learn your mouth from?” But my dad and my brother, they haven’t been to shows yet, and I hope they never come. No offense. Love them, but I don’t think it’s their vibe.

CR: Sometimes when I do shows, I’m like, "Oh, my God, my parents are in the audience, and I just am dressed in lingerie right now.” Is it kind of that vibe where you’re like, “This feels inappropriate”?

HS: It definitely feels inappropriate, but also it's like, they're seeing a different side of myself. My mom really didn't know what was going on. My dad's like, “I have no clue what's happening with you.” So they're seeing a new part of myself and... I don't know. Maybe as time goes along, I'll be like, “Oh, come to a show.” But right now, I'm like, “It's OK if you don't want to.” Even when my friends come, I'm like, “Whoa.”

CR: Does your mom know that you're coming out with an album?

HS: I think so. My extended family knows because, not to say that they're nosy, but when they heard what was going on with Hemlocke, they were like, “Oh, let's look her up.” They follow me on Insta and TikTok or whatever, so they're the ones telling her, “Oh, she got a single coming out. Oh, [she] got an album coming up.” I don't think I told her directly.

CR: Do you think your mom's going to understand that it's a concept album?

HS: No, I don't think she's going to get it, but that's fine.

CR: Do you think your fans are going to get that it's a concept album?

HS: I think they will. I feel like Lockets and I are very in tune —

CR: I didn't know they were called Lockets.

HS: Really? It was either Lockets or Hemorrhoids, so we had to go with Locket. We're really in tune with one another and knowing that Hemlocke is this quirky person, but it's interesting delving into things in my personal life and being able to bring that up in art form. I think they've caught on that that's what's happening here.

CR: When you look at the album, is there anything that you're not 100% on?

HS: Oh, everything. Oh, my gosh. I don't think I've ever felt 100% on it. I feel a good 80[%] because eight's my favorite number. I was just listening to it like, “Oh, that could be changed; this could have been better,” blah, blah, blah. But I guess that's how it was supposed to be.

CR: How do you know your art is 80%?

HS: I listen to it and I'm like, “Oh, I didn't cringe this time.” Sometimes during the process, it's almost like I don't want to hear the song because I hear the finished product in my head, but when I'm doing it, I'm like, “Ugh, just finish already.” But if I can get through it and be like, “OK, OK,” I can usually move on.

But it was hard for the album. I don't know how it was for you, but for me, I have a hard time finishing stuff, and that was what [the recording] sessions were dedicated to, just finishing it big. I didn't think I was a perfectionist, but I think I am now. And all the anxiety and stuff, oh, my God. So I definitely was just like, “I got through it and I didn't break out in a sweat. I feel like we're good and we can move on to the next step.”

CR: I was reading that you hated a lot of the process. Why did you hate it?

HS: I hate a lot of things, but I hate the finishing part. I love the starting. Awesome. Fantastic. Can do. Finishing those ideas, I don't like it. And it's just so many sessions dedicated to finishing a product. I guess [it was] equally part joyous, equally part I-can't-do-this-anymore.

I did give myself a deadline. I was like, “This is done in April.” And after April, “shrug shoulders,” because I would still be working on it if I wanted to. But I was like, “No, you need to finish it so you can move on. You're in a different part of life. This is high school to now, and now, you're post-25, you got experiences that you have to talk about.”

CR: Do you feel like, since so much time had passed, was there a part of yourself that you didn't realize existed? Because the album [description] describes as you “finding your sexual liberation.” What does that mean?

HS: I feel like maybe less “new” and more “rediscovered.” When you grow up in a religious environment, you push things down. And again, my family, love them, but we're not really the sit-down-and-talk-about-your-feelings type folks. So I just internalized a lot and I didn't really know what I was feeling until I was writing songs. Like, “Oh, you're going through sh*t, girl. Are you good?” I was able to distance myself and go just explore life, do what I need to do in the world and just move throughout it. I was able to rediscover parts of myself that I just forgot about and just didn't know.

CR: If it's about rediscovering yourself, how did you weave that into a concept album? I feel like it’s hard [because] there's so many question marks about yourself, and you're like, “This is all new. I don't know.” And then organizing that into a concept album is really hard, because you don't even have all the puzzle pieces to make it into something solid. So I'm wondering [one], why did you decide to make a concept album? And two, do you feel like it's a concept album of the character Hemlocke, or you, or both?

HS: I welcome those question marks and puzzle pieces. I think when I went in, I was like, “I have to answer every godd*mn thing.” And as I was going through it, I was like, “No, I don't.” But it was certain parts that I wanted to be filled. So if it's a puzzle, you have a pot and a flower. I'm like, “Maybe I want this side of the pot to be done or this flower.” But if it's not a complete puzzle, it's OK because... there's always... even if I die... I swear I have something going with this.

CR: I forgive you.

HS: I'm still going to have questions about myself even up until death. So I'm just like, there are certain pieces to myself that I do know, but I think that it's so much more fun to do it as a character than it is to do it as yourself. Even when coming up with Hemlocke, I debated going under my real name [because] I would have trouble distancing the two.

So I'm like, “You create this character, you don't have the whole puzzle, but you have different pieces of the puzzle that have been completed. Why not just go for it and see what comes out of it?” And I did it and then an album came out of it.

CR: Are you proud of yourself?

HS: Eh.

CR: It's OK if no. People ask me that, “Are you proud of what you did?”

HS: Oh, my God, that's such a loaded —

CR: I know, it's loaded. It's heavy, but I do think it's the hardest question for an artist to answer. “Do you think this is good? Are you proud of it?” I know you said it's 80% good, but even beyond that, are you proud of yourself for opening for Doja Cat and for Conan and —

HS: Opening for you.

CR: Oh, yeah, for me. But I'm really proud of you.

HS: Aww. Wait, I'm proud of you too.

CR: I'm just wondering if you're proud of yourself for writing music, making an album, and putting it out. Do you feel proud of yourself?

HS: I don't know if proud’s the right descriptor, but I definitely feel content. For a while, I feel like the answer to that question would've been no. I'm just not good enough, blah, blah, blah, all the insecurities and stuff. Now I'm able to look back and be like, “Pat on the back.” But less proud and more like, this is life and this is cool.

CR: Do you feel uncomfortable when people tell you you are tapping into a different genre?

HS: Yeah, I do.

CR: Why?

HS: When I was doing my music, I guess I thought [it was] general pop, but I didn't really think of it until I got in the industry and [they were] like, “Oh, you're so quirky. You're so unique. You're doing this; you're doing that.” I'm like, “I am?” It almost adds an invisible layer of pressure to keep it going, even though I never thought about it before, so why do it now? It's hard to tune it out sometimes.

CR: Do you feel boxed into something?

HS: A little bit. I feel boxed into weirdness, which is weird because I never thought I was a weird person. I don't really think I'm doing anything different.

CR: I just think it's so interesting that you also have your master's [degree]. It is so normal. You went to college, graduated, and got your master's. But also the fact that you did that and created a concept album, do you feel like you fit into the music industry? Do you feel like you found a place that you fit into even though everyone says you're weird? It's a hard question, I'm sorry.

HS: No, I love it. I got my master's in answering hard questions. Part of me really wants to say yes, but the general answer is not really. I still feel like I'm kind of finding my place. My place is there, I just haven't found it. Or maybe I'm already in it and I just don't know. And maybe along the lines I'll be like, “I don't really know what I was talking about during that interview.” But I think now I'm like a sailboat in a little river, just flowing along. Do you feel like you found your place?

CR: I think my place was kind of forced upon me because when you're gay, [it’s kind of] like, “Oh, you're a queer artist.” And it's like, “OK, yeah, I am queer artist, but I don't know if that's what I would put in my Instagram bio.” That is not the main thing, but I think that's a box that people like to put me in. And since I've become more accepted being on the radio and sh*t, I think that people have been like, “Oh, she's a pop star.” And it's like, “Well, maybe I didn't want to be a pop star.” I kind of just got funneled into being what a pop star does, which is like, you're on TV and you're famous and you have to go on the red carpet and you have to answer questions correctly and you can't f*ck up. If you f*ck up, how can you f*ck up if you are in a box? How can you step out of that?

HS: Very quickly too, at that.

CR: What I like so much about you is that the box is so annoying, and actually to me, [is] not smart. I'm just like, “So you don't understand nuance?” That's why people put you in a box. Your album makes me feel like I'm listening... I don't know if you ever played RuneScape, but it's like... Do you know what I'm talking about?

HS: I feel like I'm thinking of the wrong video game. Is it a romance one?

CR: No, not that one, but it's from the early 2000s and has video game sounds down. It's really medieval synth sh*t. I’m a video game girl and I love synths and '80s weird sh*t. So when I listen to this... I think “Sever the Blight” was one of my top songs...

HS: Aww, thanks.

CR: ... because I was like, “This makes me feel something that a lot of things don't because it's so multidimensional.” And that is what I think you’re doing so effortlessly, you have so much nuance in everything you do. I love what you pick out to wear, but also how you are just simply wearing things because you like to wear them, not because you're trying to make some type of statement.

When people start to put artists in a box, they're just like, “Oh, she wore that because it's a statement about this other artist, and she's...” There is so much nuance to you, but there is no ulterior motive. You're so in your whimsical world, and I just wonder, because I'm very into medieval vibes, is that meant to be a part of your project? How did you get there?

HS: Well, thank you for the compliments. When I do any song, I'm glad the product seems so exciting because I feel like the general getting-there can be really boring. Literally me zoning out like, “Oh, I'm going to do this song today.” And particularly for “Sever,” it was post... Not post COVID, it was during peak, peak, peak, and [I had] just got kicked off of [campus], back in with parents, parents talking about marriage, I think it was a conversation about marriage and grandchildren.

CR: For you?

HS: For me, that I had with my dad. It was this patriarchal sh*t [at the] forefront of my mind. I'm looking through the window. I'm just like, “Godd*mn, is this going to be my life? Is this it for me?” I definitely went a little bit more exaggerated, but I think in the moment I was feeling like, “Well, I guess I'm going to go be a doctor and then I'm going to, quote unquote, ‘give it up’ to get married and have children. And I'll be content with a little house and raising kids and going down that pathway.”

And I feel like I was able to get to a song like “Sever” because... I was not alone, but I felt like I was in such isolation. It was weird. It was like, “Well, everything's in the forefront of my mind, but I feel like what I want is so far away.” I just built on that and then that was the song. That's how a good bit of my songs come up. A lot of the songs that are on the album, I was kind of in this... I can go down the rabbit hole and really think about, even if it's unconsciously, “What's up with you? What's happening, girl? Checking in.” And sometimes I can make things really positive and then sometimes it ends up, I guess a song like “Sever” is a little bit sad tinged.

CR: I'm curious how you allowed yourself access to write songs when you were raised to not feel? How did you get from “we're not a feelings family” to writing an entire album about how you feel?

HS: In secret, but also unintentionally. When I first started, I was just writing, like “Oh, OK, this is cool.” And then it wasn't until I looked at my lyrics, I was like, “Oh, OK. All righty.” I'm still this way where I think that collaborating is so hard for me. I prefer the corner of the room, and I prefer the blanket over the head and just like, “OK, let's do something. Let's try a little something.”

I don't know where was the switch where I'm like “Oh, I'm just writing songs” to “You are going through a lot and you are thinking a lot in that little head of yours.” But I think in general, I just need the corner to feel safe. Maybe that's why, I felt safe in my little corner. I felt safe to do so alone. Is that unhealthy?

CR: To process things alone?

HS: Yeah.

CR: No, I don't believe so. I think that's part of processing it. I don't know if you could process everything alone, though.

HS: That's true.

CR: I mean, that's why therapies exist, because some things may be so heavy that you can't process them alone. You need some hands to hold, especially religious trauma.

HS: I should go to therapy. I'm not in therapy.

CR: It's important for being an artist, and especially one where there's a lot of eyes on you. But also the religious sh*t, I've been in therapy for years and years, and I'm still like, “F*ck.” I'm not even religious anymore, and I'm still singing about it. I don't know if it ever goes away.

The fact that you do things alone, I can relate to. But it’s so interesting that your song from your EP, “Gimme All Ur Luv,” you made that [while] processing public [attention] on TikTok. And “Girlfriend,” the bridge, that's when I first heard about you. I saw the bridge on TikTok and was like, “What the f*ck? This is so cool.”

CR: So many people really feel pressure to make content around this sacred art form, and I was wondering, how did making content come into play with this album? Do you think it was a positive, or a negative, or neither? It could be neutral.

HS: Part of me wants to say positive, but I feel more neutral. Even though I did technically get my start on TikTok, I had to take a break. It gets [to be] a lot. It's a cool way to get eyes on you, but I was making so many TikToks before I took my break. I'm like, I'm a musician. I'm working, I'm putting more creative energy into these TikToks than I am my music, and it's draining me. I feel it. So I had to step away for a good minute to the point [where] I'm like, “I'm too early in my career to be doing this.”

But I don't regret it because I needed that reset. Now I don't spend as much creative energy as I used to doing social media. I quite literally, I take the phone, the first thing that comes to my mind I do, I post, I call it a day. I have to. If not, I get sucked in. Also it's hard, particularly when you're not getting views [and] likes. Then it's like, “Oh, my God, do people not like me?”

So for me, it's been a double-edged sword. I'm more on the neutral side of things. I get the need to do it, especially in this new wave of the music industry. At the end of the day though, I am a musician and this is where my creative energy is going to be spent the most. I love connecting with my fans in such a way, but if I need to step off, I will. I just have to trust that people will still be interested, but I have to put me first.

CR: That's so awesome that you've learned how to protect yourself.

HS: I have to. I'm sure that you've had to as well.

CR: I think it comes with maturity. If you were, I don't know, 18, 19, it's kind of hard to be taking a step back. I know what you mean when you're like “I'm too early in my career to take a break from social media.” When you're a big artist who has a lot of momentum and you take a step back from social media, it doesn't affect you as much as if you were smaller. Is that what you meant?

HS: Oh, yeah.

CR: Do you feel like as you release this album, there are other things that you learned from the EP that you need to protect yourself from?

HS: I learned that I am very hard on myself, and not in like a “Oh, let's push the limits and see what you can do” type of way, but in a very... I guess I'm simplifying it, but “You're bad, you're this and you're that and blah, blah, blah.” I didn't even know I was talking to myself in such a way until towards the end. Maybe that's why I'm like, “This process sucked.” I realized how much pressure I put on myself. I need to come up with ways to combat it.

I wish that I could be like, “I resolved it. I'm good, girl.” But honestly, I still think that there are moments where I catch myself putting so much pressure on myself and I'm like, “Let's go to sleep. Tomorrow's another day. It's OK.” But that's my way. Be kinder to myself. Maybe that's the more positive element. I need to be kinder to myself.

CR: I mean, that's the greatest knowledge. I should learn that... Do you want to hear my advice?

HS: Yes.

CR: I don't really know what I'm doing. I'm still learning how to be kind to myself because I actually have a lot of regret sometimes. I'm like, “Why the f*ck did I pick this job? It's ruining my life.” I have a whole team of women behind me that help me be kinder to myself. I have an acupuncturist, life coach and a therapist, and a craniosacral massage therapist. I have really good friends around me. I think the way to be kind to myself in the music industry is to just get out of it for a moment because I don't think it's kind. I think it's really f*cked up.

I think the other way to be kind to yourself is actually literally deleting social media for real. I have deleted it for most of the year and go on to post and then just... The Internet is not kind to you or me or anyone. That is self-harm. But also I'm really patient with my artist self. My therapist said something like, “You're going to get better, but not soon.” I think that's what I have to remember. It's not going to be soon.

HS: Yeah.

CR: Obviously you love '80s synths and stuff. What music inspired you to make this album? Was there anything outside of music that made you write this album?

HS: Kate Bush. Love, love her, love her, love her, love her. What can be said other than that? Kate Bush and Tears for Fears. I know Songs From the Big Chair is their big album, but I did listen to that album a lot. And a little bit of Enya. A smidge of Enya. I want to be like her because she's in a castle.

CR: No one has seen her since 2007.

HS: And that's how I’m trying to be one day. Things that inspired me that aren't music related, probably Wattpad has seeped its way into... They be creative on AO3, Wattpad. They be creative with the way they express themselves. That's all I got to say on that matter.

It's great seeing such things because I read that and I'm like, “What the f*ck?” But now I can just throw things at the wall and be like, “OK, people like that.” I'm not really thinking of people when I write, but I like it, so let's go. So be it. Why not?

CR: I love that you are so neutral about so many processes. It takes a great deal of understanding and nuance. It's really hard. I don't think nuance is promoted that much when you're selling music or just being an artist.

I totally hear the Enya reference in the first song in the opening. The whole [album] is so awesome because you’re not afraid to try something different and make something so theatrical, but not in a way that is not digestible and not too far theatrical for pop. I really like it. I'm going to ask you a couple more questions.

HS: Hell yeah, bring it on.

CR: What is your greatest fear? It could be pertaining to the album or to your project, for yourself.

HS: I have been thinking about... after death. I was remembering this instance in church where they were talking about being in heaven. I remember thinking about being in heaven forever and ever, and ever, and ever. I was like, “Forever? Forever ever? Forever ever?” I'm trying to make light of it, but genuinely, that's scary. You're happy. Forever? Damn. Should that be scary? I don't know. But it did bring a little chill to the bones.

CR: OK. Biggest fear, living forever.

NYLON: It was just announced that Naomi will be playing at Gov Ball. I was curious, since you had such a memorable Gov Ball performance, Chappell, if you have any advice for her performance?

CR: Girl, make sure you have a soundcheck. That thrust is far. And if you walk out the end of that thrust, you ain't going to be able to hear yourself.

HS: Oh, my God.

CR: So there's that. Gov Ball is so awesome because New York is awesome, and it's kind of like a scrappy vibe, and I really liked that. But I mean, every time I go on stage, I'm like, “One show is not going to make your career or end it.”

HS: That's true.

CR: But go hard. I was f*cking green for three days after Gov Ball. Go hard or go home. I did have one follow-up question. I didn't end up on a negative note about your biggest fear.

HS: Yeah, go off.

CR: What is your greatest wish?

HS: Oh, my gosh. I want to be kissed before 30, and also I want to lose... before 30. Fill in the blank.

CR: Period.

HS: Those are my two biggest wishes, but more because people sing about it a lot. People talk about it so much. Right now, the thought of somebody's saliva in my saliva kind of disgusts me a little bit. The thought of hands on places of my body, I don't really know. But people like that. And I'm like, “Oh, I want to feel that way.” I want the experience, at least. That's my wish.

CR: That's an incredible wish. It will come true and show up.

HS: Thank you. Manifest for me.

CR: I'm so grateful I got to talk to you.

HS: Same here. Oh, I’m so proud.

CR: I've always been so fascinated by you. I know it's hard to be proud of yourself, but you f*cking should. An album is a feat, and opening is really f*cking hard.

I think you're really f*cking cool and doing things different in a way that seems genuine. You’re not trying to be cool, you just are. That's so rare to find. I'm grateful and I love you and I'm so happy for you.

HS: Oh, I love you too. Literally all you said, ditto. I'm so proud of you. Please treat yourself with kindness, girl. You’re navigating this literally the best way that you can. I'm so in awe and so proud of you. I love you so much.

CR: Thank you.

HS: Of course. So cool.

This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.